Curse

Phades · Aug 03, 2005, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

These figures were provided to the mag by the guy who runs MMOGChart.com

They are based on not sales, but subcribers to the game. And since its one of the most accurate sites on the web (If not the best), I say they are accurate.

He hasn't added Guild Wars to the live charts on site right, but the magazine figures don't lie.

It still falls back to copies sold in direct relation to accounts that were activated not actual users. For all intesive purposes each copy/key would be unique to each account. It cant also track cross usage, as i know i would have fallen within 3 of those listings at the same time.

Its not that the numbers are bad per say, they are more misleading.

RTSFirebat · Aug 03, 2005, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

It still falls back to copies sold in direct relation to accounts that were activated not actual users. For all intesive purposes each copy/key would be unique to each account. It cant also track cross usage, as i know i would have fallen within 3 of those listings at the same time.

Its not that the numbers are bad per say, they are more misleading.

Good point, but as it stands people that have the game, can and will return.

Be good if game companies would provide clear figures and make it less guess work.

Flamingpeanut · Aug 03, 2005, 09:45 AM // 09:45

I had something really important to contribute to this conversation about halfway down the page, and in catching up on the posts I've forgotten again...

Well, I certainly agree with the faction ideas. As the embodiment of the casual player (I had the game before the non-beta part of it even began, and yet I have met people who started playing last month and have a higher /age than me), I have to say that all PvP outside of the 4v4 arenas is extremely foreboding. The fact that my guild consists of 3 people who regularaly log in doesn't help, but that's beside the point.
I think the addition of lowered faction prices might help a little to get me more involved with serious PvP, but from what I cansee the amount of holes in it just about makes me not want to start.

Phades · Aug 03, 2005, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Good point, but as it stands people that have the game, can and will return.

Be good if game companies would provide clear figures and make it less guess work.

Well that entirely depends on the company or the corporate policy involved.

I personally wont be doing the same song and dance ive seen SOE produce in 3 of their titles again, regardless of the title genre or development team involved. The approach they have made is something ive come to strongly disagree with over time. But that doesnt mean i wouldnt use something produced from SCEA. They are totally different applications and genres.

To be honest, there are very few games that i actually consider "going back to", because the reasons why i left had little to do with the content of the game. This is in terms of the environment presented, not any other aspect of the content.

Crimson_1190 · Aug 03, 2005, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Increase the ammount of skills on vendors and include 80% of elites on vendors. So we can actually choose what build we want in PVE at early stages of the game and be unique.

Increase the ammount of skill points PVE characters get so they can compete with more available skills and make use of secondary switches.

The increase should be 5x to PVE skill availability and skill points.

I play pretty much all PVE, PVP has only a passing interest to me (to dispense with what is unimportant to the discussion I DO have a reason it is of no interest, but it is unimportant).

If you do quests, and get levels you will never have to worry about skill points in PvE. Many skills can be attained through quests. I am not making a comment about the distribution of said skills (for people who want to make other than fire builds, the beginning is a bit fire heavy). as for the increasing the number of skills, that would suit people who are unlocking but for people in PvE, that would decrease some of the challenge (not that there is too much) and thus increase the complaining that the there is not enough content. I dont know much outside of the classes i play, but poison which has a constant - regen on people would have a much more powerful effect on the lower level creatures in the beginning. I view elite skills (well almost all of them) as being more difficult to get for a challenge.

the problem i have is that the first part of the solution requires something that would be a little less than minor rebalancing of the way PvE is played.

As for time played before i descend into the perenial 'who's /age is larger pissing contest'
700 hrs
All minor runes unlocked
3/4 major runes unlocked (approximation i am at work but close based on memory)
10~13 Superior runes

...See I kept it civil

Mormegil · Aug 03, 2005, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

The top tier of players cannot be replaced.

And why is that? With all due respect, we're talking about skilled and experienced people, Leonardo Da Vinci is still another matter, and none of them cured cancer. So definitely, yes, they can be replaced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

They represent the culmination of year(s) of experience and information that the 'new' top tier will not inherit.

They also represent the culmination of months of arrogance. Many of them felt like divine entities just because they played in the Alpha/Beta versions of the game. Thanks god we also have people like Ensign, aka modest and helpful top tier players that contributed in a huge way to GW community. I'm an old CS/CoD player that would like to point out one thing: being "a pro" at any game means, first of all, being helpful to people who don't have your experience, being nice to others, fair, respectful and serious. The exact opposite of many players from the top Guilds you mentioned, who were just skilled players full of crap and arrogance, griefers that couldn't be called "pro", not even by mistake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Changes need to be immediate and decisive.

I agree, but every "top tier" who played in beta and had a little bit of common sense knew that UAS was not to be implemented in the retail version of the game. It was blatant. Daydreaming didn't help in the past and won't help now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Renewal needs to be balanced (remove the enchant/hex removal effect completely; 2x cast times is very strong). Fertile should not affect other spirits.

Quoted for truth. I'll add that spamming spirits is ruining the PvP experience and I'll bet that 14-15 spirits up at the same time, with consequent heavy loss of fps on low-end machines wasn't exactly in the mind of the developers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Current sales are not everything; reputation also means a big deal. Blizzard proves that perfectly.

Yeees. So, programming a PvP orgy (I'm talking about the Battleground patch) that often turns into a horrible lagfest, where spoiled kiddies united under the "We roxorz" flag own adult people who'd like some strategy and a little bit of fun is a "big deal of reputation"? Releasing a PvP patch right when GW is stealing your players (now that is a curious timing from Blizzard) would help their reputation? Releasing a game with poor, old generation visuals and horrible collision detection would improve Blizzard's reputation? We're in 2005 and in WoW you kill mobs/human players 6 feet behind you by swinging a Tauren hammer in the air like a perfect idiot. I'm not expecting MMORPGS to have Half-life 2 visuals/animations, but come on...Blizzard's been never bashed on forums and communities like it is now. World of Warcraft is little more than an old school, "I'll-show-you-the-carrot-if-you-grind-like-a-beast" traditional MMORPG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

How people can think everything is okay when they see that list of a large number of top guilds leaving is just beyond the vast depths of stupidity. Even fanboyism can only go so far...

As I've already stated before, I don't mind if some supposedly top tier players with a sick degree of self-esteem and arrogance leave. Nonetheless, you're right, it's not a good thing: in my humble opinion, GW has brilliant, complex PvP mechanics, but for this very reason PvP is constantly in need of minor tweaks. Spirit build is a joke, and a mid if low-tier team using it could hold the HoH for ages, provided they can get there.
Then again, this "large number of top guilds" can be (and will be) replaced by new guilds as experienced as the ones that left, and maybe even a little bit more mature.

That said, there are many possible reactions to the current situation. An adult chooses to wait for some tweaks or leaves at once. Maybe he criticizes Anet's choices/policy in a good mannered, well thought out way, like you did. A spoiled kiddy, on the other hand, cries out loud complaining, making the community a worse place for everyone.

Sorry for the long and passionate (I hope not as passionate as a flamebait

) post.

Crimson_1190 · Aug 03, 2005, 11:34 AM // 11:34

[QUOTE=Mormegil] [QUOTE] edited for space. I think you make a fine point. but it was a bit long to quote

One thing I do not understand, and a point you raised...does age convey experience? I mean I was not alpha/beta or any of the other greek letters well except Theta Xi, but that is unimportant. I see in these posts no shortage of people saying how long they have played, and i do not understand the value of that. In some essense it is much like the /age thing....an interesting statistic but has no effect on game play. No one who is not then will be able to compare their exp, no matter how valid. It becomes an arbitrary arguement then. Age is important for relating things but i think for a video game, people tread a bit too heavily on it.

So, the game is not as you saw it in the beginning....but alot of people still have fun with it in its present form and many don't really care as much. As for numbers to this effect I hold a rather unscientific poll with groups i am in asking their feelings...complaints even from people with alot of expericence. The major one is small content, but even that is not often voiced as a down fall, but more of a hope for more in the future. Albeit this is PvE.

If you would like, i could formulate my findings into a hypoth test and run it....with a population like this i bet i could get the standard deviation down a good degree....come on a poll....just run through groups you are in asking their opinions....lv 20's only....

Keure · Aug 03, 2005, 12:25 PM // 12:25

First, some postulates here:

Postulate 1: Top-tier competitive gameplay comes from the hardcore PvPers.
Postulate 2: A well-made competitive game will earn the attention and longevity of hardcore PvPers for the least amount of tweaks and new content available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

Then again, this "large number of top guilds" can be (and will be) replaced by new guilds as experienced as the ones that left, and maybe even a little bit more mature.

As time goes on,
1) the "it's new" label on the game disappears and
2) the existence of games that cater towards hardcore PvPers will draw them away (both new and old).

If the PvP entry barriers (the high amount of grind and, to a lesser extent, the absolute need to have a decently-sized network of PvP friends playing the game to a similar extent) and the corresponding amount of highly competitive PvP (low, especially in GvG) remain the way they are now, hardcore PvPers will leave for another game.

There really isn't anything that drives new hardcore PvPers (or PvE veterans) to replace that void, either. The rate at which the average GW players become good PvPers is low, due to a PvE campaign that doesn't adequately prepare players for PvP (for reasons mentioned by Zeru and others in the past) as well as the PvP entry barriers. New hardcore PvPers also don't have much reason to come to this game because of the same PvP entry barriers and the same low amount of highly competitive PvP going on.

This only hurts top-tier competition, both in quality and in quantity.

I see a positive feedback loop resulting in the elimination of top-tier competition. For a game that lacks PvE longevity, said elimination is very tough to view as acceptable for the game's future.

Crimson_1190 · Aug 03, 2005, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keure

First, some postulates here:

Postulate 1: Top-tier competitive gameplay comes from the hardcore PvPers.
Postulate 2: A well-made competitive game will earn the attention and longevity of hardcore PvPers for the least amount of tweaks and new content available.

As time goes on,
1) the "it's new" label on the game disappears and
2) the existence of games that cater towards hardcore PvPers will draw them away (both new and old).

If the PvP entry barriers (the high amount of grind and, to a lesser extent, the absolute need to have a decently-sized network of PvP friends playing the game to a similar extent) and the corresponding amount of highly competitive PvP (low, especially in GvG) remain the way they are now, hardcore PvPers will leave for another game.

There really isn't anything that drives new hardcore PvPers (or PvE veterans) to come to this game to replace that void, either. The rate at which the average GW players become good PvPers is low, due to a PvE campaign that doesn't adequately prepare players for PvP (for reasons mentioned by Zeru and others in the past) as well as the PvP entry barriers. New hardcore PvPers also don't have much reason to come to this game because of the same PvP entry barriers and the same low amount of highly competitive PvP going on.

This only hurts top-tier competition, both in quality and in quantity.

I see a positive feedback loop resulting in the elimination of top-tier competition. For a game that lacks PvE longevity, said elimination is very tough to view as acceptable for the game's future.

as to a positive feedback loop, i do not see it. HEHE cant find the pole on the unite circle (discrete because people are not continuous). If the top teir leave, then it will become casual pvp.... point being it will find a new stability. like the abrupt change in the econ they made...people cried over the sharp changes, but the transient resp died out and prices are seemingly dropping back to normal or evelating....

I question the quote about low avg PvE becoming good pvp....does one have to? the campaign does not adequately prepare you because it is not meant to prepare you. Maybe at times give you a flavor of it, but that is not its purpose.

also i see in your postulates are valid would the only concern be PvP, but you also forgot that there are PvE's that are not involved in that. I understand that you are not headed in that direction for your post (i assume), but you mention PvE without assurting anything about their motivations.

Antagonist · Aug 03, 2005, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Even if the existing top guilds that left get replaced it will not change the fundamental problems in the slightest way. Hardcore grinding PvE guilds will always have a advantage because once they decide to swith over to PvP they will have a far greater chance to succeed due to a huge selection of unlocked skills. Over time they will be the new elite with no one to compete while the casual player who has only a fraction of skills unlocked will never get the chance to be a top PvP player. In the end these new PvP guilds will leave too and GW does not have an infinete supply of new PvE player who are willing to play PvP on a high level and PvP will become even more of a joke because the one's left are the PvE players with their PvE toons who just like to play PvP once in a while.

Aniewiel · Aug 03, 2005, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Thank you all for making this a meaningful conversation. Please keep it that way so that the thread doesn't descend into an "us vs. them" scenario or an "ANet Sucks" thread. We all got enough of that yesterday.

Thank you again!

Keure · Aug 03, 2005, 01:00 PM // 13:00

The positive feedback loop only concerns the top-tier players.

Sure, it may acquire some stability in the future with casual pvp being completely dominant but is this the desired outcome? Is this best for the longevity of the game? What of the solid competitive game base that Guild Wars currently has at its core?

The campaign's purpose doesn't change the validity of my statement, I think.

Quote:

The rate at which the average GW players become good PvPers is low, due to a PvE campaign that doesn't adequately prepare players for PvP (for reasons mentioned by Zeru and others in the past) as well as the PvP entry barriers.

kalaris · Aug 03, 2005, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Wow this is the most meaningful mature, thread I've ever read on a game forum.

Everyone has made mostly valid points...

Recently my guild had a bunch of our top pvp people quit and we had to start from scratch, I've spent the last 3 weeks farming, raising characters, bartering for upgrades, and building up to a point where I can play almost any class effectively...

I've already beaten the game 3 times, and I don't want to know how much farming I've done, we've been largely successful at GvG ~200 rank with the new players we've been training...

but then we hit the spirit teams... 5 in a row... you know something is too powerful when its getting abused like that... but anyway.

To get to a point where everyone can work ONE team build effectively we've had to work our tails off, we've gotten about 3000 faction and thats already down the drain,

To put it simply :
Faction costs are too high for PvP Players -- To unlock an elite it would litterally be faster to start a new character and get them to the elite with the help of runners and guildmates, there is no feasable way a PvP player not in a guild willing to help them would ever be able to make a custom character. So its a waste to spend it on skills or elites, and you could farm runes faster, so really all you should be spending faction on is rare weapon upgrades, which you better of unlocked the weakest version first anyway!

Skills are spread out too unevently.
Someone made the point that all ele's have to be fire till halfway through the game.
This is very true, you can't have any diversity untill pvp.

Elites are too deep in the game.
This is true for both pvp and pve characters, you can't get hundred blades till the last mission, what the hell is the point of that? -- I can't get Powerblock till Perdition block, thats kinda a Domination defining spell...

Crimson_1190 · Aug 03, 2005, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keure

The positive feedback loop only concerns the top-tier players.

Sure, it may acquire some stability in the future with casual pvp being completely dominant but is this the desired outcome? Is this best for the longevity of the game? What of the solid competitive game base that Guild Wars currently has at its core?

The campaign's purpose doesn't change the validity of my statement, I think.

point duely noted. I was just implying, probably rather hamfistedly that there is a correlation between the two. What changes they can or would make to one will have an effect on the other. Striking a true balance i think is very hard. I can understand the point of PvPers but I wonder WHY they designed it the way they did, and maybe in knowing that, a solution could be reached.

EDIT ** the point of that is alot of old players saying the way it was/ supposed to be. My quandry is over whether it was SUPPOSED to be that was or whether it was that way by coincidence and it was supposed to be something else.

As a side note i dont know about the use of the term positive feedback, i would go with a fading channel or even a low pass attenuation channel

...hearing someone say postulate and PFB got my attention

Halanna · Aug 03, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

2. There is a concern several top guilds has left the game

In fact here is a partial list:

Club G
NOXi
Vanguard
Blood Eagle
Fianna
Eight Versus Eight
Nuclear launch detected Nu
Spirits of War
LE
Elitist Jerks
LLJK
DrkH
LtH (ladder to hell)
BBB
Te
PANK
We are Godzilla You are Japan
DFx
Bleeding Edge
The Grind
RRKM (rock and Roll Killing Machine)
AOU
Legion of shadow
PIE
PUG
LotD (officially)
Havoc Legion
CoR

I too would be concerned if all the guilds where leaving.

Gaile Gray responded to this here http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...048#post278048

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 03, 2005, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halanna

Gaile Gray responded to this here http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...048#post278048

Gaile gray accidently misread it as being alpha guilds..

In which case she was right, but I explicitly said, all guilds..

Later on I listed alpha guilds that had quit which most where listed,

Basically to put more on this post.... I listed all guilds that had quit and Gaile accidently read it as alpha. Just a simple mistake. I can see how she was not in a very good mood though while reading the post (a lot of flames) and could understand a small oversight.

But I would personally voice my oppinion that she did not reply to any arguments and is probably smart to do so.

Crimson_1190 · Aug 03, 2005, 03:21 PM // 15:21

so was tetris....but lets face it it is not the same genre. compare like with like....personally I always loved Medieval total war....because it took hours to prepare for something....forcing you to think in the future.....is that relevant....no.

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 03, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crimson_1190

so was tetris....but lets face it it is not the same genre. compare like with like....personally I always loved Medieval total war....because it took hours to prepare for something....forcing you to think in the future.....is that relevant....no.

I loved medieval Total war because of the epic battles you could zoom in on etc

so awesome seeing a cavalry charge... The turned based strategy part was okay too.... It was good mix that allowed both, for instance online or instant action you could play with every unit and combination without touching the turned based or vice versa.

aka

we want to put the "play" back in Play guildwars.

It is discouraging to see teams and teams of people that love pvp leaving because of the huge time investment... no one wants to spend 600 hours

Reiden Argrock · Aug 03, 2005, 03:37 PM // 15:37

1) Vocal Minority refers to people who post on the forum, if you think the majority of people who play Guild Wars are registered on a forum, you are not thinking straight. I imagine A-net gets just as many or more, requests/suggestions from player email, and reports as they can pull out of all the wars that happen on the forums. Those of us that do post on forums, are a vocal minority, and should not think otherwise.

2) Several top guilds have left the game? ok, I guess I can believe this, except half of the guilds listed I have seen winning hall of heroes in the past 2 weeks, so maybe their ripoff guilds, but who am I to say. And who are you to say they have quit? Do you know them all personally, perhaps they stopped playing for some other reason, maybe other guilds were not putting up enough competition, maybe they found out after ton's of hard work, that other top ranked guilds were buying their guild rating. When I see a post from the Leader of Blood Eagle, that they are no longer playing GW because pvp sucks now, then I'll be worried, but not now.

3) you want increased faction, thats fine, I like the faction system, I know of no other game that even gives you the option to skip straight to the fun stuff, even though alot of people even complain that pvp is a grind...People will never be happy, unless they are #1 and have perfect equipment, and 100% unlocked, but then they will be bored and complain for more content, so it's never ending is it. Faction does make it easier for pvp only players to unlock stuff. Faction is good, and you want more, ok.

4) spirit spamming does need fixed, but this is just another new discovery, like Vengeance and the other overly powerful skills, and it will be fixed. If all these alpha/beta testers are so smart and experienced, then I don't see why they would quit because of a recent development by the players.

This just seems like another attempt to bash a-net because their trying to give us new free content, while making fixes on a regular basis, but for some reason, they won't make you an elite, and so your unhappy. If I am wrong about this, I'm sorry, try not to sound like a troll.

edit: nobody wants to spend 600 hours what? playing the game, taking down other players? Having fun with their guild? It's only a grind if your only goal is to unlock everything, and you look at pvp as "road of grind" to get there. If you look at pvp as having fun, then I don't see how anyone could be complaining.

RTSFirebat · Aug 03, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

Gaile gray accidently misread it as being alpha guilds..

In which case she was right, but I explicitly said, all guilds..

Later on I listed alpha guilds that had quit which most where listed,

Basically to put more on this post.... I listed all guilds that had quit and Gaile accidently read it as alpha. Just a simple mistake. I can see how she was not in a very good mood though while reading the post (a lot of flames) and could understand a small oversight.

But I would personally voice my oppinion that she did not reply to any arguments and is probably smart to do so.

I think she not very pleased by your badmouthing of A.net, you have to stop to think is posting all this really going to help the situation, your more likely making it worse. Gaile is right, maybe you shoud just drop the subject and let A.net address it as best they can.

They are already aware of the issue, and you don't need to keep posting all this.

Does it really matter what a few guilds in the Alpha have left? Its only a minor number.